M3 engine for locost kit car

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M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby Reno on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:26 pm

Hi Guys my name is Reno

I lived overseas for 8 years and a friend of mine had a Westfield Megabusa, "Hayabusa engine" and I fell in LOVE with it, but now have moved back to S.A, and wanted one over here, but when I worked out what it would cost me, its not viable " WAY TO EXPENSIVE" . The question I wanted to ask is, my cousin has crashed his E36 M3 " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E36_M3#E36_M3 " and I was thinking of buying it off him, to put its engine into one of the locost kit cars. will the Engine fit in this chasis?, can the chasis handle this power? Will it also be nose heavy? Or should I play it safe and put a toyota 4age silver top, with a T50 gearbox? I'm a newbie at this so try to bear with me :oops: I won't be racing this car it will be my sunday driving and mess around car :D .

Thanks

Reno
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby bikemonster on Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:37 am

Hi Reno

The answer is 20V 4AGE.

There is a huge knowledgebase out there, and you will find that every issue you come up against has been solved already. You will have enough to do following a well-trodden path.

While neither as light nor as revvy as a bike engine, nor as powerful as the Bemmer engine, the 20V is really more than enough. So much so, that Blossom, my 20V-powered car is really best enjoyed on the track. By the time a 4AGE is ready to change out of second, you are already doing a hundred and silly kilometres per hour.

There is at least one BMW 6-cylinder powered Seven here in Cape Town, but really, why would you? The nature of a Seven is best served by a small, light(ish), revvy motor. It really is not about horsepower, it’s about balance.

The other pluses that the 4AGE has are cheapness and toughness, both of which it has in bucketloads. My car’s rev limiter is set at a whisker above 8,000 rpm, and when I race the car I buzz the rev limiter at least once per lap. For a South African builder, there is no other engine that comes even close.
Blossom - Toyota 4AGE 20 V with Toyota 5 speed and ali gear knob for added lightness.

Clamshells - Old School Cool from when retro was still new!
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby muller on Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:55 am

bikemonster wrote:The other pluses that the 4AGE has are cheapness and toughness, both of which it has in bucketloads. My car’s rev limiter is set at a whisker above 8,000 rpm, and when I race the car I buzz the rev limiter at least once per lap. For a South African builder, there is no other engine that comes even close.


whimp!! :wink:

In A6 spec the guys used to limit their engine at over 9000rpm (and that was with a stock bottom end apart from TRD bearings) My limiter is set at 8500 with my shift light coming on at 8000rpm which I hit in EVERY gear change.

Back to the topic.... an M3 powered 7 will be a straight line monster once you managed to get it off the line without turning your tyres into expensive smoke, however it will be seriously nose heavy and not much fun on a track. Bang for buck you simply cannot beat a 20v 4AGE
Anton

Race car 1: Birkin IRS 4AGE 20v (TLR class B - B10)
Race car 2: Birkin IRS 4AGE 20v (TLR Class B for SO - B20)
Road car: erm.. who cares
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby bikemonster on Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:08 pm

muller wrote:
bikemonster wrote:The other pluses that the 4AGE has are cheapness and toughness, both of which it has in bucketloads. My car’s rev limiter is set at a whisker above 8,000 rpm, and when I race the car I buzz the rev limiter at least once per lap. For a South African builder, there is no other engine that comes even close.


whimp!! :wink:

In A6 spec the guys used to limit their engine at over 9000rpm (and that was with a stock bottom end apart from TRD bearings) My limiter is set at 8500 with my shift light coming on at 8000rpm which I hit in EVERY gear change.


At the risk of turning this thread into an exercise in willy-waving :D the "whisker over" for Blossom is 8,300. And the only reason that I only buzz the limiter once per lap is that I suspect that waiting for the engine to cough as a signal to change up is counter-productive.

Returning to something like the topic, as (anecdotal) evidence of the robustness of these engines, when I took the head off for some development work, the cam followers, cams and bores all looked like new. This after bunging in a second hand import silvertop, changing the oil and doing several race meetings and track days. My expectation is that using the engine as I do, I expect to get at least another 2 years worth of race/track day use out of it before a refresh becomes necessary.

Something else to consider with engine choice, is what you want to achieve with your car. If you want a Seven-esque driving experience, then it really is all about light and nimble. If you want a super-powerful monster then a Seven is not really the ideal car, and something like a Cobra becomes the choice.

James
Blossom - Toyota 4AGE 20 V with Toyota 5 speed and ali gear knob for added lightness.

Clamshells - Old School Cool from when retro was still new!
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby Reno on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:17 pm

THANKS FOR THE QUICK REPLY'S......

Ok I guess the 4age motor is the way to go then :D I have never been in a 4age lotus 7 replica "locost" to see how it pulls, I have searched the net flat out for some figures for a 4age powered locost, but can't find anything. Anyone know how fast it will do 0 - 100km/h? and is there a way to to slighty modify the engine for a little bit more power? to be honest I LOVE POWER :) "without adding a turbo or supercharger" and IF possible not to shorten the engines life span. + - Around how much would it cost to build this car from scratch including engine and gearbox? "completed" I have already put aside some money for this project.

Thanks for ALL the info you guys have given me :), this is a GREAT FORUM......
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby muller on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:36 pm

bikemonster wrote:At the risk of turning this thread into an exercise in willy-waving :D the "whisker over" for Blossom is 8,300. And the only reason that I only buzz the limiter once per lap is that I suspect that waiting for the engine to cough as a signal to change up is counter-productive.

Returning to something like the topic, as (anecdotal) evidence of the robustness of these engines, when I took the head off for some development work, the cam followers, cams and bores all looked like new. This after bunging in a second hand import silvertop, changing the oil and doing several race meetings and track days. My expectation is that using the engine as I do, I expect to get at least another 2 years worth of race/track day use out of it before a refresh becomes necessary.

Something else to consider with engine choice, is what you want to achieve with your car. If you want a Seven-esque driving experience, then it really is all about light and nimble. If you want a super-powerful monster then a Seven is not really the ideal car, and something like a Cobra becomes the choice.

James

With the old kyalami layout I used to buzz the limiter running into the last corner to avoid shifting to 3rd. I've managed to over rev the engine twice (probably around 10 000 rpm) due to ham fisted shifting 2-3-2 instead of 2-3-4 and I've done 3 laps around Phakisa without any water in the car after a waterpipe popped off. The engine took all the above abuse without any hassles. I recently changed the main and big end bearings after about 2 years racing as a precaution, and the old bearings still had plenty of life in them.

The only things I'm fastidious about is only using proper full synthetic oil, cranking for oil pressure when the engine is cold, and making sure to warm it up properly before nailing it - after that it lives between 6000 and 8000 rpm. These motors can take serious abuse.
Anton

Race car 1: Birkin IRS 4AGE 20v (TLR class B - B10)
Race car 2: Birkin IRS 4AGE 20v (TLR Class B for SO - B20)
Road car: erm.. who cares
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby arno on Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:19 pm

Hi Reno
Out of curiousity i have measured my 328's motor wich is of the same fisical dimensions as a m3 motor. 1) The motor is actualy to long to fit. 2) Because the motor is fitted at a angle it will make it to wide for a standard locost frame, and if you try to fit it upright it would probably be to high. But since you have got a budget for a 30k+ motor there's lots of options. You can even get somebody to build you a decent 4 cyl motor in access of 150 kw with that budget.

It's a pity that all newbies coming to the forum gets discouraged if they don't wanna build a 20v race car. To the thread hi jackers turning it into a how high can my motor rev thread, i had motor a motor that could rev to 15000 but it won't keep up with a 20v toyota in a locost frame, the same as a 20v reving 10 000 won't keep up with an m3 at 5000rpm in the same body. So whats everybody going on about? :mrgreen: :D
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby bikemonster on Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:08 pm

arno wrote:It's a pity that all newbies coming to the forum gets discouraged if they don't wanna build a 20v race car. To the thread hi jackers turning it into a how high can my motor rev thread, i had motor a motor that could rev to 15000 but it won't keep up with a 20v toyota in a locost frame, the same as a 20v reving 10 000 won't keep up with an m3 at 5000rpm in the same body. So whats everybody going on about? :mrgreen: :D


In fairness, Arno, Reno did ask whether he should go for a 4AGE. Whether you want to race or not, there are a lot of reasons to go for the 4AGE, a lot of the "hi jacking" related to the toughness and cheapness of the 4AGE. If we were in the UK, then I would likely advise Reno to seek out a K-series motor. They are lighter than the 4AGE, just as revvy, and are only hampered by a well-deserved reputation for head gasket failure.

My car is not an out and out race car. It is a road car that I happen to race. To build a 7 and never take it on track is to miss the whole reason for 7, which was conceived as a race car for the road. I have no quibble with anybody who wants to own a 7 and does not want to race it, but if you want to explore the car's limits the only place to do it is the race track. That can mean track days as well as race meeting.

With apologies if we are moving even further from the original question.

James
Blossom - Toyota 4AGE 20 V with Toyota 5 speed and ali gear knob for added lightness.

Clamshells - Old School Cool from when retro was still new!
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby bikemonster on Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:14 pm

Reno wrote:THANKS FOR THE QUICK REPLY'S......

Ok I guess the 4age motor is the way to go then :D I have never been in a 4age lotus 7 replica "locost" to see how it pulls, I have searched the net flat out for some figures for a 4age powered locost, but can't find anything. Anyone know how fast it will do 0 - 100km/h? and is there a way to to slighty modify the engine for a little bit more power? to be honest I LOVE POWER :) "without adding a turbo or supercharger" and IF possible not to shorten the engines life span. + - Around how much would it cost to build this car from scratch including engine and gearbox? "completed" I have already put aside some money for this project.

Thanks for ALL the info you guys have given me :), this is a GREAT FORUM......


Hi again Reno

A 4AGE Seven will do 0-100 in under 6 seconds, at a guess. There are ways to modify for more power. Vanderlinde Conversions do a nice conversion on the silvertop version of the 4AGE 20V. The difference is all at the top end, so prolly not worth doing on a street only car. It may also be more cost effective to just find a blacktop.

If you consider that you will be dropping around 100-115kW of engine into approximately 600-700kg of car, you will achieve a very healthy power/weight ratio.

James
Blossom - Toyota 4AGE 20 V with Toyota 5 speed and ali gear knob for added lightness.

Clamshells - Old School Cool from when retro was still new!
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby muller on Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:07 am

Reno wrote:THANKS FOR THE QUICK REPLY'S......

Ok I guess the 4age motor is the way to go then :D I have never been in a 4age lotus 7 replica "locost" to see how it pulls, I have searched the net flat out for some figures for a 4age powered locost, but can't find anything. Anyone know how fast it will do 0 - 100km/h? and is there a way to to slighty modify the engine for a little bit more power? to be honest I LOVE POWER :) "without adding a turbo or supercharger" and IF possible not to shorten the engines life span. + - Around how much would it cost to build this car from scratch including engine and gearbox? "completed" I have already put aside some money for this project.

Thanks for ALL the info you guys have given me :), this is a GREAT FORUM......


Slight modifications would probably be to flow the head (though the stock casting is pretty good for mass produced product). Remember then engine makes around 115kw stock (or 72kw/L which is already quite high) so don't expect massive gains from simple mods. With regards to engine life span.... its the last thing you have to worry about, they are tough, and if it does go bang in a big way its only R6500 for a complete new engine! (thats for a blacktop, or R3k for a silvertop)
Depending on the weight of the car you are look at 5 to 6sec 0-100 times. But remember the real thrill of these cars is not straight line speed.

Its impossible to put an exact price tag on a build, there are simply too many variables, but I'd say R60k minimum if you cut corners, R80k-R120k is a more realistic target again depending on how many fancy bits you use. If you read bit on the forum you will see this has been discussed.
Anton

Race car 1: Birkin IRS 4AGE 20v (TLR class B - B10)
Race car 2: Birkin IRS 4AGE 20v (TLR Class B for SO - B20)
Road car: erm.. who cares
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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby Reno on Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:17 pm

Thanks to everyone that has replied to me, its a big help..


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Re: M3 engine for locost kit car

Postby Liam Lage on Mon May 05, 2014 8:30 pm

Muller, i know this is an old form, please excuse me. Where can i get a blacktop for R6500 ? :shock:
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